Episode 214

214 - Personal Performance Goals as a Scrum Master

How can I, as a scrum master, know I am doing well? We answer that question for Bridget Brown in today's episode. This is a tricky one, but we're pretty darn proud of what we landed on. Would you like your question answered? Drop a comment on this thread on LinkedIn, and let's discuss!!

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Transcript
Josh:

I have multiple Roombas and they're all named after, Rocky villains or

Josh:

they Apollo clubber and thunder lips.

Bob:

I would have stuff to cover.

Bob:

I forgot Clumber clubber.

Bob:

Lang Lang is my favorite clever, clever Lang lovers.

Bob:

The best

Josh:

I assume that everybody follows.

Josh:

Both Bob and I on LinkedIn.

Josh:

So you saw the thread from Bob asked for topics and it was a near

Josh:

avalanche of thoughts and ideas.

Bob:

It was a brouhaha.

Bob:

What?

Bob:

Wow.

Bob:

It was, it was pretty, yeah, there is a, there was a lot of feedback and they'll

Bob:

probably still we'll get some feedback.

Bob:

Right.

Josh:

So today we're pulling our first topic from that list from Bridget brown.

Josh:

I prefer to pronounce it Bridgette.

Josh:

So Fuji.

Josh:

Well, there's no horsemanship, but we've got Bob.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

Bob says, Bridgette, I say Bridgette, but we have both places.

Josh:

Never let us know.

Josh:

And,

Josh:

and

Bob:

Bridget is interested in, I'll just read it.

Bob:

I would like to see something about writing self-directed

Bob:

performance goals for scrum masters in POS the original question.

Bob:

How do I, as a scrum master misery success in my position can be such a challenge.

Bob:

So, so that's,

Josh:

that's the question.

Josh:

So we're going to start with scrub masters and see how far we go.

Josh:

It may turn into a series, as we tell.

Josh:

All of the other roles, but today is going to center on scrum masters.

Josh:

Yes.

Josh:

So you're a scrum master.

Josh:

How do you know you're doing good?

Josh:

Because there are so many times so many places I'm assuming this is a world that

Josh:

Bridgette lives in where there's not a strong leader of the agile practice.

Josh:

Or reports into a different role or something like that.

Josh:

Like I've seen scrum masters report to engineering directors.

Josh:

So you're trying to chart your own path in an agile way and like,

Josh:

what, how do I know I'm crushing it?

Bob:

I mean, I'd start, it's going to sound maybe.

Bob:

I mean, I mean, Brigid's question, I think was more outside, like performance

Bob:

of the team and things like that.

Bob:

I'm going to start on the inside and say, ah, ha you know, how do you

Bob:

measure your, your own self-mastery.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

So things like.

Bob:

Focusing on your learning, focusing on you know, what's, what's my

Bob:

personal backlog for learning.

Bob:

Do you have you have such a thing?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And do you, have you created one and are you, so are you working on

Bob:

improvement, personal improvement, not anyone telling you, right.

Bob:

This is you privately by yourself.

Bob:

With feedback, if you can get feedback, but if you don't have feedback, then

Bob:

there what's the last book you read are you out in the community and

Bob:

connecting the dots and networking?

Bob:

I think of the self-mastery.

Bob:

So lately I I've been, I've been working on this coaching book

Bob:

and w so ingrained in my brain is the, the agile coaching group.

Bob:

Which is a wheel and in the middle of that is self-mastery.

Bob:

So for agile coaches.

Bob:

And so I'm not, I'm not inventing this, I'm just saying I'm bringing

Bob:

this into Bridget's question.

Bob:

I th I think the center of the coaching growth wheel is self-mastery

Bob:

like, self-awareness is something.

Bob:

And I would, I would actually bring that into scrum mastery is like measuring

Bob:

what you're doing on the inside.

Bob:

And are you doing anything and how are you growing yourself?

Josh:

You know, what's interesting is I find myself often orthogonal

Josh:

to many of the best scrum masters and agile coaches that I

Bob:

work with.

Bob:

So you find yourself what orthogonal is that like a bird

Josh:

it's a no, not ornithologist.

Josh:

You're on fire.

Josh:

You are fricking fire.

Josh:

In that I don't, I don't do anywhere close to the amount of continual

Josh:

research and reading and digging that.

Josh:

So many of my peers that are absolute rock stars do.

Josh:

I, I, I try and learn by doing and like failing and adjusting and learning,

Josh:

but there have been times along the way where I have forced myself to like, stop

Josh:

and read and learn and do those things.

Josh:

I'm like, oh, well, shit, that would make things easier.

Josh:

Or, oh, I'm kind of doing that.

Josh:

But if I did did more of that, but I don't know.

Bob:

You're not a self learner, so not a external

Josh:

I, and I wonder if like that's just a personality trait or whatever,

Josh:

you know, because like you think about this, I'm super passionate about

Josh:

creating content for people learn, but I don't listen to other podcasts.

Bob:

It's funny.

Bob:

Well, I don't, I don't listen to that.

Bob:

I occasionally do.

Bob:

But not, I'm not a regular listener, but, but you know, I'm an avid reader.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

So I think we all have, you know, that you never, you bring it up.

Bob:

I've noticed that about you and I haven't really said anything.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

There's a couple of books.

Bob:

What's the, there's a book on leadership that you always,

Josh:

uh, turn the ship around.

Josh:

No, No, it's a good to great,

Bob:

great by choice.

Bob:

There's a team.

Bob:

There's a team, the,

Josh:

a

Bob:

debugging teams.

Bob:

That's the one when I think there.

Bob:

So you latch onto a few.

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

Right?

Bob:

When you, like, when you find one you're like all over it.

Bob:

So there's no shades of gray

Josh:

wood, like the whole Spotify thing.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

Like I actually read the original write-up about that

Josh:

and that got the wheels turning.

Josh:

And many of you know, that I've been on the Spotify train for

Josh:

a long while, but I do kind of Spotify my way, you know, what you

Bob:

would, you recommend it.

Bob:

So here we are on a stage.

Bob:

Giving people advice.

Bob:

I mean, do you, are you, are you recommending the Josh way?

Bob:

I am.

Josh:

I am just trying to provide an alternate view that you can.

Josh:

You don't have to completely measure by the number of books that you've read.

Josh:

I think you have to find your learning style.

Josh:

there are so many times when, like back when I was streaming on Twitch all of

Josh:

the time and we would get in a discussion and somebody would reference a book or

Josh:

reference a paper written by somebody.

Josh:

And I'm like, I have no idea.

Josh:

What that is.

Josh:

You're like, but Josh, you're the, you're the guy on the microphone.

Josh:

Well, don't, you know, everything like, cause I don't right.

Josh:

That's but, but the angle I was trying to point there is that.

Josh:

You can learn differently.

Josh:

I learn by doing that's how I've found that I accelerate my, my growth.

Josh:

There are, like I said, many of the best folks that I know that are out there, that

Josh:

I've worked with are the opposite of that.

Josh:

And they are book and podcast and blog heavy, and that's how they, that's

Josh:

how they grow the way that they want

Bob:

to grow.

Bob:

I think it's a hybrid it's because, so I guess what I was

Bob:

trying to say is not pick yeah.

Bob:

I think the self-mastery is.

Bob:

Take some professional accountability.

Bob:

And so are you taking professional and, and, you know, sort of, do you own your

Josh:

own improvement?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And it's almost like, what are those avenues and are you,

Bob:

and are you self-aware of your strengths and your weaknesses?

Bob:

So one of the things I want to send you for this podcast is.

Bob:

Competitive agility has a series of surveys or assessments.

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

And, they have three of them called professional

Bob:

improvements and they're free.

Bob:

They're free.

Bob:

I think the scrum master is free for scrum Alliance members.

Bob:

And you can go in there and take it's like 60 questions or whatever, but what you

Bob:

get is a, a rounded view of where are your strengths and where are your weaknesses?

Bob:

That I think would be useful for someone.

Bob:

So I think some people, what I'm saying is some people don't think that way.

Bob:

Right there.

Bob:

They don't think in continuous improvement.

Bob:

I care less about the how.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And it has to lean into like what I admire about what you're doing.

Bob:

Like you got to leave.

Bob:

If even if you're an avid book reader, you have to practice that stuff.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

You have to be practical about it.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

So, so, so, so let's just

Josh:

lay in that one baseline, like to me, that's baseline.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

Anything else?

Josh:

You have to own your own improvement and you can't wait for somebody.

Josh:

To build you a syllabus, correct?

Josh:

For your own path, you have to do the

Bob:

deuce, do something there and track it.

Bob:

So that's a measurement.

Bob:

The reason I'm bringing it up is, I don't know if very many companies

Bob:

measure that they're going to measure your external successes or lack thereof.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

So let's start there now.

Bob:

Why don't you pick one?

Bob:

What, what does, what does, how do I, how do I, as a ScrumMaster

Bob:

measure success in my position?

Bob:

So

Josh:

the thing that I've always said to scrum masters or agile

Josh:

coaches that I've hired is.

Josh:

Your job is to put yourself out of a job.

Bob:

Ooh, I like that.

Bob:

That's we're like nailing the priorities, right?

Bob:

Start with the inside out,

Josh:

put yourself out of a job.

Josh:

And reality is that's never going to happen, but that, but that's your

Josh:

aspirational goal mindset, right?

Josh:

You want to infuse the team with the same agile mindset and that, to me,

Josh:

that's the key is that agile mindset.

Josh:

That they can respond and react and work well together.

Josh:

Do all the things that a good healthy team does without you nudging them

Josh:

or pushing them to make that happen.

Josh:

Eventually your, your teams will get so good that you don't have to say very much.

Josh:

And there'll be times when you can just give a look and people go, oh, yep.

Josh:

You're right.

Josh:

Okay.

Josh:

We're back on it.

Josh:

And so then at that point, that's where, that's where you start to expand and

Josh:

you have the capability if you want.

Josh:

And all your company needs you to, to work with another team or something like that.

Josh:

But I find that too many companies spread scrum masters too thin, too soon.

Josh:

Yep.

Josh:

There's a time and a place where it works, but they don't get to

Josh:

that point where that mindset is ingrained in the minds of their teams.

Josh:

So that, so to me, that's the, the baseline is you have to

Josh:

own own yourself learning.

Josh:

And then your like north star, your light on the hill is I'm going to put myself

Josh:

out of a job because these teams are going to be so ingrained in the agile mindset.

Josh:

So then in the middle, what are the things in the middle?

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

I, I, as you were talking, I was also thinking about values.

Bob:

Like, are you walking your values?

Bob:

There's five scrum values.

Bob:

I trigger on courage and it actually, I, one of the ways that trigger

Bob:

on courage is, are you challenging the status quo in a 360 fashion?

Bob:

So are you challenging your boss?

Bob:

Are you challenging your peers?

Bob:

Challenging in a positive way, in a respectful way, but and you know, and it

Bob:

goes in both directions, but are you, are you sort of walking your, your value talk?

Bob:

I would, I would measure that in some way or I would evaluate myself

Bob:

against my principle orientation and particularly courage.

Bob:

I think the scrum master.

Bob:

Oh yeah.

Bob:

In order for it to be high performing as for you to be high-performing

Bob:

there because it's, it's a tough, it's an incredibly tough job.

Bob:

It aligns with me to leadership.

Bob:

You know, how you and I've talked about right.

Bob:

Leadership is, you know, bring your.

Bob:

Every you have to a good leader, has to bring their a game all those days.

Bob:

And they can't, you know, they can't just waffle.

Bob:

They have to, you know, they have to lead, they have to

Bob:

defend, they have to challenge.

Bob:

They have to do that for their team.

Bob:

We've talked about that.

Bob:

I think a lot of that falls to a scrum that.

Bob:

That same dynamic.

Bob:

Unfortunately, most ScrumMasters are less experienced than the leaders.

Bob:

Right?

Bob:

So it's hard for us.

Bob:

We've talked about, it's hard for a lot of leaders to do that.

Bob:

It's hard for scrum masters do it, but I think that's the bar.

Bob:

What do you think?

Josh:

I agree, 100%.

Josh:

If it was easy to be a highly functioning team, people wouldn't

Josh:

need scrum masters, but scrub master.

Josh:

I have to be that annoying coach.

Josh:

That's just constantly in people's ears of we can do better.

Josh:

Here's a thought an idea.

Josh:

Let's try this.

Josh:

Okay.

Josh:

We tried that, that didn't work.

Josh:

Let's try it again.

Josh:

Here's where we're at.

Josh:

Right?

Josh:

You just have to be think back to a coach or a teacher or a parent

Josh:

or someone in your life that.

Josh:

Maybe wouldn't let you slide on things as much as you would've liked more.

Josh:

Bet slash assumption is that they had a relatively high degree of impact in your

Josh:

life and how you became who you are.

Josh:

Right.

Josh:

Either positively or negatively, maybe you're like, I don't ever want to do that.

Josh:

Or like, yes, that's, that's who I became.

Josh:

Right.

Josh:

But those are coaching moments where as soon as you see a coaching moment

Josh:

and you don't take action on it, you

Bob:

failed.

Bob:

Did we talk in a recent Medi-Cal about complacent teams or, and I think

Bob:

this is, this is coming back to that in my mind that it's, it's really

Bob:

easy to just mail it in because it's so, and it's not just being an ass.

Bob:

So we, we are not saying be a jerk or be a dictator, or be

Bob:

a project manager or whatever.

Bob:

Where's, there's subtlety in the balancing act, but you have to lean into.

Bob:

Calling it, what it is, it's confronting the team.

Bob:

And a lot of scrum masters, I find it.

Bob:

And as, as scrum is increasing in popularity, I think the universe

Bob:

of scrum masters who were sort of, they think they have to be

Bob:

the team's friends or something.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

So one there's this like I'm, I need to be a friend of the team and then

Bob:

I to, I don't want to rock the boat.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Your job is to rock the boat.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And, and your job is to rock the boat.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

But a lot of them are really uncomfortable with that.

Bob:

It's like, oh, they're like handling the team with kid gloves.

Bob:

And you can hear that in their voice and they're frustrated about it.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

But they're not doing any of that.

Bob:

So they're frustrating the team's performance and you've

Bob:

got to take the gloves off.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

And so we, we throw around the term, highly functioning team,

Josh:

high, highly effective team, whatever a lot of other people do.

Josh:

And a lot of other channels be it Cod podcasts, books,

Josh:

blogs, videos, you name it.

Josh:

But the reality is those teams.

Josh:

Are great and great is not an accident you don't stumble into being great.

Josh:

I would agree.

Josh:

You become great through continual hard work and improvement.

Josh:

That that that's where the magic is, but that magic is driven by.

Josh:

A team's desire to become great.

Josh:

And, and in that means that they are willing to accept the coaching.

Josh:

They have a strong coaching support team, whoever it might be, it might

Josh:

be the manager, it might be the scrub master or both or whatever, but great.

Josh:

Doesn't just fall out of the sky.

Josh:

You have to make it happen.

Josh:

And a scrub master.

Josh:

That's your job.

Josh:

Your job is to help the team become great, not make the team.

Josh:

Help the team become great.

Bob:

And it's not just teamwork, as you were talking.

Bob:

I was thinking an example that popped into my head was like a

Bob:

sprint review that no one comes to.

Bob:

And the team is demoing to themselves or to that, but no stakeholders are there.

Bob:

So to me, part of this, a scrum masters role, I want to hear you weigh in on this.

Bob:

Someone has to, I don't care who it is, but someone has to kick off.

Bob:

And get the stakeholders in that room, right?

Bob:

The team is working for them.

Bob:

It's embarrassing.

Bob:

It's demoralizing to the team.

Bob:

There's no recognition going on as to how either.

Bob:

Excellent or there's just no feedback.

Bob:

Right?

Bob:

That's unacceptable now.

Bob:

So in a lot of case, you could say, well, that's an impediment and I'm going to

Bob:

tell my boss, I'm going to tell the coach.

Bob:

I sent an email to the coach or in my one-on-one.

Bob:

I talked to my boss about it.

Bob:

I don't know if that's good enough.

Bob:

No, I mean, I, maybe that's okay as a start, but I also

Bob:

think you have to get up what,

Josh:

isn't the job of a scrub master to remove impediments.

Bob:

There's this line between removing them, what you, what you feel like

Bob:

you can directly change and then what Dell, what what's out of your control.

Bob:

There's there's certain things.

Bob:

For example, the team doesn't have, would they need $20,000

Bob:

worth of equipment, right?

Bob:

That the scrum master can not directly.

Bob:

And pull $20,000 out of there, but

Josh:

I would expect that with.

Josh:

Sign ways to try and make that happen.

Bob:

That's where I'm going.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And then they delegated to the chief financial officer, or they talked to

Bob:

their boss, but two weeks go by and then what they get is lip service.

Bob:

Well, you know, the policies and the procedures of this.

Bob:

So it's going to take a six months to get that right.

Bob:

Et cetera.

Bob:

So what are you doing at some point?

Bob:

You, you, you don't have the power, you don't have equivalent power

Bob:

to everyone in the organization.

Bob:

But what steps have you taken?

Bob:

Let's do my demo.

Bob:

Forget, forget the money side of them.

Bob:

It's I would walk into people's offices and say, we missed you

Bob:

like the VP of sales, right?

Bob:

Who is three levels?

Bob:

Five levels above me.

Bob:

I would probably politely introduce myself.

Bob:

Give them some chocolate or bourbon or whatever, but I would be like,

Bob:

you need to get your, your butt.

Bob:

Like we missed you.

Bob:

The team missed you.

Bob:

We delivered something to you as.

Bob:

And we needed your feedback.

Bob:

So I'm not asking, I'm telling you to get into the net or something.

Bob:

I'd be like, we need you to be in this.

Bob:

I might walk in with my product owner.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

And side-by-side, cause I think the product owner plays a part in that.

Bob:

But the point is it's, it's taking that.

Bob:

So it's not just downward pressure, you know, I, you

Bob:

need to be firm with your team.

Bob:

I think you need to be firm with the organization.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

Agreed because you're.

Josh:

You're changing the way an organization operates.

Josh:

They didn't have these before, so they don't know the value.

Josh:

It's your job to help them understand the value, show the value and then have them

Josh:

recognize, oh yeah, I'm here every time.

Bob:

One of the interesting things about my daughter Rhiannon has

Bob:

pivoted to scrum mastery and she's got a lot of leadership experience.

Bob:

So she's the most junior, she's been a scrum master for six months.

Bob:

Six seven months.

Bob:

And she feels like an imposter sometimes when it comes to scrum, she's doing

Bob:

well, but, but it's still, yeah.

Bob:

And software teams are not, she's never worked with all the teams, but

Bob:

what she does have is leadership jobs.

Bob:

And, and I see her in some of the stories she tells, like she and

Bob:

people are looking at her like, it's like, holy crap, what are you doing?

Bob:

I mean, in a positive.

Bob:

So she has those leadership skills.

Bob:

So that's actually what being a differentiator for her.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

But she won't put, she won't tolerate BS at that level.

Bob:

This is, you're not a jerk, but she's going to call people out.

Bob:

If leaders aren't supporting the team, if you say this is the most

Bob:

important project on the planet earth, and then you're not acting that way,

Bob:

she's gonna, she's going to, yeah.

Bob:

I mean, she

Josh:

had a lifetime of practice.

Josh:

I mean, her dad, a lot of.

Josh:

Thank you, Josh.

Josh:

I could, that was too easy, was

Bob:

cutting through the beat.

Bob:

So she had an entire lifetime of cutting

Josh:

doesn't know how much you've helped her like that you

Josh:

were being intentional, right?

Josh:

Like you knew this was going to be worked out.

Josh:

Are you

Bob:

done now?

Bob:

That was your moment looking at you.

Bob:

Some happiness is a moment to shine, but, but.

Bob:

I think other scrum masters coming in, they have to that's

Bob:

the muscle they have to develop.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

That leadership muscle.

Bob:

So that's part of it is measuring that I put down.

Bob:

It's not in, it's not your personal success.

Bob:

Oh yeah.

Bob:

Without a doubt.

Bob:

It's the team.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

So another thing when Bridget was I, and she didn't say either way.

Bob:

You know, we talked about personal attributes, but everything is

Bob:

through the lens of your team.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Everything.

Bob:

I mean, I think a hundred, it's the same, this, you know, it's a leadership role.

Bob:

Absolutely.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

I'm coming back.

Bob:

Like leaders don't measure it.

Bob:

You can't make sure, right.

Bob:

Oh, I'm an outstanding leader.

Bob:

Well, what are the results?

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

What's going on?

Bob:

You've had 50% attrition.

Bob:

Well, yeah, you got results, but you toasted your team.

Bob:

Yeah, no.

Bob:

You get measured through what, what occurs?

Bob:

I think the same thing.

Bob:

So for scrum masters it's whether you like it or not, and this is why I think

Bob:

being tough, if you will, organizationally in your team or raising the bar or

Bob:

being real or not be messing around it's you're doing it for the team and

Bob:

you're doing it for overall performance.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

So measure.

Bob:

So it's not an individual.

Bob:

No, I,

Josh:

you know, I always go back to coaching.

Josh:

The players are on the field, making the plays, the coaches not.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

And the players ultimately decide whether the game is won or lost, but

Josh:

the coach is measured, is measured on whether the team wins or loses.

Josh:

It's the same thing.

Josh:

And that's a very uncomfortable position for so many people to realize that you

Josh:

can't like grab a lever and pool with all of your might and flip it over to winning.

Josh:

You can't do that.

Josh:

It is just a continual.

Josh:

Dogfight to help change the hearts and minds of a group

Josh:

of people to work differently.

Josh:

Welcome to our diversity inclusion minutes says sad, Josh, and you'll

Josh:

find out why Josh has sat in a minute.

Bob:

So What's going on in my space.

Bob:

Well, I, there is something to, did you get invited by the

Bob:

agile disciple USA or whatever?

Bob:

Did they reach out to you?

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

Cause you I'm going to ping them again.

Bob:

Okay.

Bob:

And so next, next Saturday, the 22nd or something we'll

Bob:

put it, I'll get you a link.

Bob:

I'm going to be, this is their first webinar.

Bob:

It's next Saturday in the afternoon.

Bob:

I'll get you a link for that.

Bob:

And the reason I'm involved and it's, I just want to add my voice to get

Bob:

some energy going for these folks.

Bob:

So it's their first webinar.

Bob:

The other thing, speaking of speaking Rhiannon and I are so I'm, women in agile,

Bob:

I'll be, I'll be speaking at agile Philly women in agile in like a week or so.

Bob:

And then in February 10th, I think Rhiannon and I are doing, like a father

Bob:

daughter asked me anything for the, agile Seattle women in agile, Seattle.

Bob:

Nice.

Bob:

So we're like hitting both.

Bob:

We're hitting both coasts to some degree.

Bob:

So there's three talks to, for women in agile.

Bob:

And one for what I would say, people of color, agile disciples.

Bob:

And we've talked about that before and really trying to support those.

Bob:

I'm ex I'm trying to do whatever I can.

Josh:

And Bob continues to carry the load it for

Bob:

we're we're we're a team, man.

Bob:

We're a team.

Bob:

so yes,

Josh:

I continue to not have good

Bob:

enough updates.

Bob:

So we're going to get you, I'm going to get you connected to, it's on me, Bob.

Bob:

I

Josh:

gotta, I gotta make it.

Josh:

Have you,

Bob:

agile and color?

Bob:

Did you reach out to him?

Josh:

No.

Josh:

All right.

Josh:

So back to the episode.

Josh:

No, no, no, no.

Josh:

So listeners be Bob, don't be Josh.

Josh:

That's what this whole segment is about.

Josh:

Be Bob.

Bob:

No, no, no.

Bob:

All right.

Bob:

Back to the episode.

Bob:

How do I remember a story?

Bob:

You told it I'm at dude.

Bob:

Richard.

Bob:

So we, and we shared it on the Medicus many episodes ago.

Bob:

I think where years ago you didn't value ScrumMaster, Korea.

Bob:

Very highly.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And, and then at some point, You flipped on that and you saw the value.

Bob:

I think Richard showed you the value or others showed you the

Bob:

value, but what, what was it?

Bob:

Because that's another thing.

Bob:

So in order to survive, so yes, it's about the team, but you need to be,

Bob:

so Bridget needs some hints around.

Bob:

What should people see in you to value you right.

Bob:

Team results?

Bob:

Is there something else, like what, what stood out to you years ago?

Bob:

What sold you?

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh:

I had never seen a really good strong scrum master in action because w

Josh:

everywhere I was, it was the scrum master.

Josh:

And so they were a scrum master and a developer or, and a test or something

Josh:

like that, not fully dedicated to us.

Josh:

So I never saw.

Josh:

What that could do, even though I was a very agile centric person.

Josh:

What Richard showed

Bob:

was

Josh:

that he owned, he owned the team's success and was willing to jump

Josh:

in anywhere anyhow, to help them, them improve and work directly with them.

Josh:

One-on-one he would pull somebody aside and pair with their manager and.

Josh:

Just work them through challenges to help them become a better

Josh:

teammate, help them understand.

Josh:

And it was a relentless pursuit of team excellence.

Josh:

And that's something that I have that I always drive myself and

Josh:

my teams with, but I too wasn't.

Josh:

And so I was a leader.

Josh:

The agile coach for everybody.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

And then I saw the beauty of a person focused on that and the

Josh:

power of change and improvement that, that could drive the force of

Bob:

his will.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

So there is a, you know, we talk about, so there's this subtleness

Bob:

to it that it's all about the team.

Bob:

And it's about a coaching role, et cetera, but there's also like this

Bob:

personal level of intensity or yeah.

Bob:

Or focus.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And

Bob:

that

Josh:

was Richard, right?

Josh:

He, he had the courage to talk about.

Josh:

There was nothing he wouldn't say right.

Josh:

There were times that might've got up in trouble upstream, but for the

Josh:

teams, there was nothing that he wouldn't say because he believed

Josh:

that would help them become better.

Josh:

And it didn't matter how uncomfortable it was.

Josh:

He knew it was his responsibility.

Josh:

That if he didn't just like I talked about a while back that if he didn't take action

Josh:

on that moment, it was lost forever.

Josh:

And the team has just slid back and they didn't even know it,

Bob:

personal, the word memorable came to my mind as you were talking to you,

Bob:

the team needs to drive results and it's a servant role, but you need to,

Bob:

you need to leave behind footprints of memorable menace where people say.

Bob:

W where they get that, the role that you're playing, I'm sort of

Bob:

asking, but it's, it's this, and it's really subtle because it's not about

Bob:

you, but it is about you, right?

Bob:

So it is about, so I think scrum masters have to walk this line

Bob:

of it's all about the team.

Bob:

But it's, but it's in, it's equally all about what are you doing?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And are people recognizing what are you doing?

Bob:

Impact?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

It's

Josh:

a leadership role.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

You don't win unless the team wins, but you're not a part of the team.

Josh:

So you have to figure out how you can influence how

Bob:

team and how you can shine, how you can.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And it's, it's a really, it's sort of a challenging walk to walk, right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Yep.

Bob:

And that's actually, it's intangible.

Bob:

I think a lot of scrum masters and even coaches.

Bob:

There's there's sort of this weird thing of how do I get measured?

Bob:

And I say this as a coach, well, you measure my results in the

Bob:

organization or you measure my results in the team, but there's also

Bob:

something like, how am I showing up?

Bob:

Like, there's two measures.

Bob:

Like, what is Bob's persona?

Bob:

What is he doing?

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

Do I feel, do I have confidence in him, et cetera?

Bob:

Does he have the right mindset?

Bob:

And then there's the impact?

Bob:

I think there's the same thing, but

Josh:

I don't worry about that.

Bob:

But I think, but I think Bridget has to, I think Bridget has to

Bob:

not worry about it, but be aware, be aware of it or scrum masters.

Josh:

I don't, I don't think so.

Josh:

To me, to me, you focus on that team getting better.

Josh:

And when that happens, it's clear how that happened.

Josh:

The team will recognize your importance and the difference that you've made.

Josh:

Didn't happen.

Josh:

If it just was luck, it'll be clear that maybe you didn't play a large role.

Josh:

All of

Bob:

that, but yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to disagree.

Bob:

Agree.

Bob:

Exciting.

Bob:

No, but I, I, I'm not just, I think you're a big bombastic.

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

Verbal.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Fricking leader.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Like you, you, you cannot be missed in an organization.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

That's Josh Anderson and I'm not just picking on your size, it's your persona.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

So, so, so, so

Josh:

there is two sides.

Josh:

Understand.

Josh:

Okay.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

That makes sense.

Josh:

I gotcha.

Josh:

Right.

Bob:

Not everyone has that big bombastic.

Bob:

Yeah, right.

Bob:

Like Richard under a different manager may not have read another leader, may not have

Bob:

recognized the difference he was making.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

I got ya.

Bob:

So all I'm saying I'm, I'm, I'm agreeing and I think you have to be aware of how

Bob:

am I landing, how am I being present as a scrum master and are people aware

Bob:

of the role, You naturally, I get that.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

I I'm naturally I don't plan on it.

Bob:

I get it.

Bob:

You get it.

Bob:

But I don't think everyone gets, has that persona.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And that's the additional, that's the, I don't know the guidance,

Bob:

something about react to that.

Josh:

You're you're right with that lens.

Josh:

You're right.

Josh:

Especially as you're starting.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

And, and, you know, we likely don't suffer from.

Josh:

The imposter on his

Bob:

privileged Rome, the word that I'm thinking of, we have,

Bob:

we build up that privilege.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh:

Over decades of doing this, talking to a kajillion people on all of that.

Josh:

We, we, we feel different when we walk into a room cause we've

Josh:

been doing it for 20 years.

Josh:

Someone that's new in that.

Josh:

I get it.

Josh:

And yes you do.

Josh:

You do need it all.

Bob:

I'm saying all I'm saying many casters is be aware.

Bob:

So you may have to take a front and center view every once in a while.

Bob:

You may have to more subtly, you know, like put yourself in front of the team.

Bob:

Occasionally, whatever that means, be more.

Bob:

Be more transparent across the organization to gain competence,

Bob:

to, to, to maybe talk about what you've accomplished.

Bob:

Like it didn't just magically happen.

Bob:

Right by, right.

Bob:

It's like, oh, look, this team went through the roof.

Bob:

You know what, you know, you may want to like, run your flag up the pole with

Bob:

people and say, you know, I did play this.

Bob:

Didn't just magically happened.

Bob:

It was hard work on the part of the team.

Bob:

And it was hard work on my part as well.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Here, here, and here.

Bob:

And just remind

Josh:

folks of that.

Josh:

You are correct.

Josh:

The one thing that I believe has gotten harder about the scrum master

Josh:

job is as agile has proliferating.

Josh:

Big words for Josh today,

Bob:

you are, you are on fire and they pronounce them reasonably well.

Bob:

And when I hit you and I'm not even going to try it, but when he

Bob:

hit you with the bird joke, you came back with the cryptologist.

Bob:

Oh my God.

Bob:

You're you're like, who

Josh:

are you?

Josh:

I don't know.

Josh:

Maybe it, like I had raisin bran support.

Josh:

I know the raisins.

Josh:

It was the breakfast you had.

Josh:

So the thing that has just made the job messier and harder is that

Josh:

everyone thinks they know agile.

Josh:

And so as the, as the flag bearer of agile for your team and for your

Josh:

company, this is an important point.

Josh:

You are going to get so many people that will say, well, that's not

Josh:

agile, or what we're doing is agile or whatever, whatever, whatever.

Josh:

And now it's become this continual onslaught of folks that have worked

Josh:

in places where there was a deranged version of agile you had in their mind.

Josh:

And now you're trying to run what you believe to be a more appropriate version

Josh:

of agile, but they have five years of what they believe to be, what agile should be.

Josh:

And so then you bring people from all over together as you build and grow a team

Josh:

and then executives, you know, that's it.

Josh:

You are going to have to educate.

Josh:

And defend and baseline people on what agile is.

Josh:

So I think that's one of those things is you can start to measure those times when

Josh:

people speak up and say, well, this is an agile, or what we're doing is agile.

Josh:

And over time as you do your job and do it well, those should disappear except

Josh:

for maybe the new people that you.

Bob:

That's a beautiful comment.

Bob:

I mean, Medicare says it's, it's really important is like measuring

Bob:

against what and part of the scrum masters job before you even talk

Bob:

about performance or measurement is have you established a baseline of

Bob:

understanding in order to, as a, as a foundation and it's, as a coach, I have

Bob:

to do that as a leader, we have to do.

Bob:

And it's getting increasingly more difficult to do that, right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

'cause you, you, you end up with a bunch of Monday morning quarterbacks and I

Josh:

having played football at the level that I played at and being coached by some of

Josh:

the best coaches that are out there now.

Josh:

When I sit in the stands or I'm watching a game with someone.

Josh:

Or in a group or in a bar to hear these people say things, it's like, oh, that

Josh:

hurts my ears, please don't say that.

Josh:

And the same thing will happen to you because now everybody

Josh:

believes they know what agile is.

Josh:

Just like, everybody believes that they know what that player should

Josh:

have done in whatever sport, even though they probably never done it.

Josh:

But that's, that's, that's your job now is you are, again, I always

Josh:

think of you are that flag bear that's out front for, for agile.

Josh:

And like, this is our flag.

Josh:

This is who we are.

Josh:

This

Bob:

is who we're going to.

Bob:

Everyone's assumption of what it is.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

Right?

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And, and so you can try to establish a baseline, but you're

Bob:

still, you also have to navigate.

Bob:

And even get personal solace and say, I'm never going to, you know, I'm

Bob:

never going to please everyone with the instance of Angela's is how do I, how

Bob:

do I just sort of aggregate this stuff?

Bob:

Yeah, man, I think you nailed that one.

Bob:

I hadn't even been thinking about that.

Bob:

That's that's challenging for me.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

Yeah.

Bob:

And it never goes away.

Bob:

It's like these Monday morning, I think drives me crazy these Monday

Bob:

morning quarterbacks and it, it affects your, it direct, like what

Bob:

they think is something that's mine.

Bob:

I think is something that's important, but then, then, you know, they're measuring,

Bob:

why are you worrying about that?

Bob:

You need to be like, you know, why are, why don't we have smaller

Bob:

stories or something like that.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

So it's the pre, so it's not just terminology, it's even the

Bob:

prioritization of what, what they think we should be focusing on

Bob:

versus, and what impacts versus

Josh:

what really.

Josh:

And, and, and what's happening now is there's so many views.

Josh:

That you don't need to try and change everybody's mind because if you try

Josh:

and do that, you'll do nothing else.

Josh:

So I often talk about, okay, you're on the field.

Josh:

Yep.

Josh:

Is that person in the upper deck in the last row yelling and scream?

Josh:

Does that really matter?

Josh:

Versus is it the owner?

Josh:

Is it the, whatever the director of player, like people that really make a

Josh:

difference or are they just somebody up in the upper deck and they're yelling and

Josh:

screaming because they've had a few beers.

Josh:

That's fine.

Josh:

Let it go.

Josh:

That's fine.

Josh:

It doesn't, it doesn't matter.

Josh:

So really understanding when you need to do that.

Josh:

And when you don't, so definitely do not try and fight the war of

Josh:

answering every question across your organization because you will do nothing.

Josh:

Yeah.

Bob:

I could probably wrap it up with this one.

Bob:

I'd say outstanding reviews and meaning.

Bob:

So I'm bringing it back to the ultimate measure is the team and the ultimate

Bob:

measure is, are we producing results?

Bob:

Not how many points, but are we delivering value?

Bob:

And are we bringing joy, you know, joy to the team, joy to the

Bob:

organization, like energy to the organization, are people getting

Bob:

excited when we show stuff, et cetera.

Bob:

So I'm thinking that ultimately as a scrum master, Like that, that sprint review

Bob:

as a, as a defining moment of all the other stuff, is that that's the show.

Bob:

What do you think?

Bob:

What is the emotion there?

Bob:

What's the value in there?

Bob:

What's the tenor in there?

Bob:

What's the feedback what's.

Bob:

Yeah.

Josh:

So I've been working with ThoughtWorks for a couple of months

Josh:

now, and they shared a term with me that I've fallen in love with

Josh:

and they now call it a showcase.

Josh:

Yeah, I like that.

Josh:

So it changes the tone of what that's about.

Josh:

We are here to showcase what we've done, a sprint review.

Josh:

Doesn't, doesn't give you that same.

Josh:

Like we're here to like show off.

Bob:

It's a big deal,

Josh:

but that is ultimately what you want your team to be able to

Josh:

do is to be excited about what they built and what they've done and have

Josh:

the opportunity to, to show it off.

Josh:

So I think that's one of those things.

Josh:

That's a small thing, but I think just changing the mindset.

Josh:

Of that is a huge

Bob:

difference.

Bob:

So what's happening.

Bob:

So a lot of these, you know, coming back everything we said, I really, I really

Bob:

feel good about, but that final cherry on top is from the T you know, what

Bob:

measures the team, it's the showcase.

Bob:

Right.

Bob:

and it's not, it don't, don't focus on points.

Bob:

Don't focus on stories, focus on excitement, focus.

Bob:

Yes.

Bob:

As you're delivering things, but focus on the tenor, the feedback, You

Bob:

know, are people getting emotional?

Bob:

Are they getting excited about what you're doing?

Bob:

Like you would in a showcase, there's the home showcase around here, right?

Bob:

Where you, they showcase the fancy homes and they get, oh, you know,

Bob:

you hear hoes and Oz and stuff.

Bob:

It may take you a little while to get there, but that's having that vision.

Bob:

I think that's the one, you know, not a hundred metrics, but

Bob:

it's at one, one event what's

Josh:

going on.

Josh:

It ultimately boils down to delivering value.

Josh:

Yeah.

Josh:

That's why I wanted

Bob:

to bring this back circle, circle to that.

Bob:

Yep.

Bob:

All right.

Bob:

We good?

Bob:

I think so.

Bob:

Hey.

Bob:

All right.

Bob:

So from beautiful downtown Cary, North Carolina, I'm Bob gamble, Peterson